In today’s episode, Taylor is joined by author and psychoanalyst, Jordan Dann. Jordan discusses how embodiment can improve relationships and lessen feelings of loneliness. She also emphasizes how cultivating a strong relationship with oneself is the foundation for all other relationships.
Mentioned In The Episode:
Meet Today's Guest:
Jordan Dann, LP, is a dynamic psychoanalyst, author, teacher, and speaker. Her training as a Gestalt therapist, Somatic Experiencing Practitioner, and Imago Relationship Therapist, as well as her many years coaching and directing actors; has fostered her desire to help people become more connected, self-aware, free, and expressive.
Jordan is the author of "Somatic Therapy for Healing Trauma", and the creator of the "Relationship Transformation Course: The Art of Rupture and Repair". She also serves as an Associate Faculty member for the Gestalt Associates for Psychotherapy in Manhattan.
Taylor Morrison
You're listening to Inner Warmup where your inner work begins. I'm Taylor Elyse Morrison, creator and author of Inner Workout. And you as always are our expert guest. Thanks for being here today.
Before I introduce you to today's topic, I want to remind you about the companion resource for this season The Strong Friend's Inner Workbook. This workbook expands on the three strong friend archetypes, the caregiver, the picture perfect strong friend and the intellectual and it has over 40 reflection questions to help you explore your strong friend tendencies, focus your inner work, and identify where you need relational support. You can get all of this for just $4.99 at the link in the Show Notes or by going to Bitly slash strong friends plural, that's b i t dot l y slash strong friends.
Today, we're having a conversation about embodiment, and how being in our bodies or not being in our bodies can impact the way that we're relating to the people in our lives. I'm so excited today to introduce you to Jordan Dann. Jordan Dann, LP is a dynamic psychoanalyst, author, teacher and speaker. Her training as a Gestalt therapist, somatic experiencing practitioner and a Imago Relationship therapist, as well as her many years coaching and directing actors has fostered her desire to help people become more connected, self aware, free, and expressive. Jordan is the author of Somatic Therapy for Healing Trauma, and the creator of the Relationship Transformation Course, The Art of Relationship and Repair. She also serves as an associate faculty member for the Gestalt Associates for Psychotherapy in Manhattan. This interview, offered up some much needed perspective shifts for me, and I hope it will for you as well. So let's get into the episode.
Hi, Jordan, thank you so much for being on the show.
Jordan Dann
My pleasure. I'm happy to be here with you.
Taylor Morrison
So as you know, this season is all about this concept, or archetype of the strong friend. And before we dive into our conversation today, I'm curious, do you consider yourself to be a strong friend or maybe a recovering strong friend? And if so, what does that journey look like for you?
Jordan Dann
Yeah, well, I had to read your definition of strong friend because I thought, I'm definitely a strong friend, of course. But I understand that your definition of strong friend means someone without, without vulnerability, or who has to keep it all together who, who doesn't rely on others. And I would say that is absolutely not me. I mean, I'm not a strong, I am fully in touch with my vulnerability. And it's often in my most vulnerable moments that I actually reach out to my closest friends to just be held, to feel understood and to feel less alone in whatever the difficult feelings are. I mean, I also love to call my friends when I have great news and to celebrate. But it's absolutely, I have learned to reach out in those moments of a vulnerable need. And I think my journey around friendships, is that kind of my biggest, I'm a super, super sensitive human being, which is, you know, probably, you won't be surprised that there's often a misconception in the world. Like, I'm super colorful, I really like to put myself out there on social media. And I'm not afraid to share my voice in a room. And often I think that like, can be misconstrued as I'm not sensitive. I'm not vulnerable. That was certainly my experience growing up as a kid, like not really feeling, almost confused, of having these two sides of who I was, but actually, not always being, the vulnerable parts of me not being seen. And so, often friends would say things or do things that were hurtful and I kind of felt like whoa, almost like sucker punch. Don't you know who I am? And of course, I think the louder parts that stand out and you have to have imagination and you have to be empathetic yourself to be able to know that there's another dimension to, certainly to me.
Taylor Morrison
That's so beautiful. And just a reminder for all of us listening that we can even in closer friendships, see the pieces that people are putting out there. Even I think color is such a great example, like, I am looking at you on camera right now, you've got this beautiful bright sweater, you've got bright flowers in the background, light, bright and colorful art. So I'm seeing that right away. And that could be all I see of you, is that Jordan's this colorful person. But if I'm looking more closely at your background, I also see at least I think I see like some binders on the side. So there's probably something that you've studied or that you're interested in. But if I'm just looking at what calls my attention right away, I'm actually missing the full picture of who you are.
Jordan Dann
Yeah, I really appreciate you bringing it into the moment with just what you're observing. Yeah, that's, that's so true. And I think, you know, that's such a big part of how I approach relationships is always thinking about, like, what, what is this person touching in me? Like, when I feel my own jealousy, for instance, you know, what is this person? You know, I love the Eastern kind of philosophical approach to jealousy, which is like, jealousy is an opportunity to see the gift of what someone has that you would like to cultivate in yourself. You know, there's the phrase, If you spot it, you got it. So, you know, I really think we have a choice when we feel envy or jealousy is like, Oh, what is that person teaching me, which is so different than I'm lacking, or that person has more, but I'm in relationship to inner work, that's how I'm always approaching relationships is, you know, whenever someone touches something in me, a friend touches something in me, I always go inside first, to kind of survey the landscape and kind of, you know, do a real walkabout in my introspective landscape so I can really come from a grounded place before I engage someone, especially when my feelings have been hurt.
Taylor Morrison
Absolutely. And you've started to kind of touch on some of the concepts that I wanted to explore with you today. We're gonna be talking about embodiment, which I think is a critical skill for everyone, like everyone can stand to be more in their body connected to their body, especially those people who live in their head and kind of let their mind, their thoughts run the whole show. I also want to acknowledge that the term embodiment, especially for me, at least over the past few years, it's like everywhere, that it's hard to know what it actually means. So before we get too far, could you give us your take on what embodiment is?
Jordan Dann
Yeah, well, I think embodiment is so far reaching and enters into so many domains of life. So I think it's different depending upon what area of interest or what field you're coming from. But for me, embodiment, is having a here and now felt sense of my experience in the home of my body. Embodiment, whether that's dance, whether that's somatic therapy, whether that's social justice work, whether that's nutrition, whether that's being in relationship, it's like always coming back to my sensory experience of being in the nearest environment I have which is my body, and trusting in the, you know, embodiment, every moment, our body, anytime we dip into that awareness, there's so much information and wisdom. That's letting us know what we like, what we want to move towards, what we want to move away from, what we need more of, what we need less of, who we want to be with, who we don't want to be with, like. So for me, embodiment really is being in an ongoing moment to moment dialogue with the home of your body as the source of wisdom for living.
Taylor Morrison
I really appreciate this the home of your body. And before you really gave the the context in your, how you see embodiment, you mentioned, it does look really different depending on the lens that you're in, you mentioned like dance. I grew up dancing so for me, my perspective of embodiment was a lot around like is my body doing this ballet move correctly, is my body more or less flexible today, is my body warmed up enough to do this thing that needs a lot of warm up. And as I've kind of grown and gone deeper in my own inner work, that starting point of dance, made it easier for me to know some of the nuances of my body. And it was only when I started having richer conversations with other people and working with other people that I realized, to use your common terminology, not everyone feels at home in their body. Or if we're talking about it as a conversation, not everyone like speaks the same language as their body. So for those people who are listening to what you're saying, and are like, it would be so beautiful if my body could give me insight into what's lighting me up, or who I enjoy being with, what's a good starting point for them?
Jordan Dann
Well, first, what I like, what I really appreciate you bringing in is, not everyone thinks like this, and I just want to say and normalize. You know, for so many people, there's been good reason not to be in touch with sensations in the body. I mean, we all come into the world as babies fully in touch with our body. I mean, if you see newborn babies whale, it's a full organismic experience, you know, I mean, our voice is connected to our fascia which runs through our whole body. So it's our birthright. And then as we move through the world, because of the environments, the experiences, the people we're in relationship with, it's either safe to be at home in our body, or it's not safe to be. And so for, especially as a somatic therapist, that's really the work of somatic therapy is making it safe enough to come back home to one's body. So I just want to bring that piece in, because that's true for all of us. There's certain moments where we've had to leave our body in order to stay safe or feel safe. Back to your question about what's a starting place. Curiosity, I think is the starting place. Like where is it safe enough to be curious about my felt experience, is that when I'm washing my hands, I'm to just notice the temperature of the water, and the feeling of movement as my hands move the soap, where in the arenas of safety in one's life, like where's it safe enough to bring a real presence centered awareness, to be aware to feel the experience of your body. Cooking is another great place, I feel like to bring in embodiment practices, because there's so many sensory experiences of what we're smelling and the smells that we smell, like garlic in the pan, there's an experience through our whole body. It's not just this the smell, there's a whole kind of orchestra that moves through our body. So you know, just walking, even, you know, beginning to bring your awareness so you're not like listening to it, you know, to a podcast. Well, maybe you're listening to your podcast.
Taylor Morrison
No, I talk all the time about how like, I have to have walks without listening to podcasts. So if someone's listening to this while walking, if this needs to be your sign to pause the podcast, let it be a sign.
Jordan Dann
Yeah, to let our full awareness be on the movement, the experience of how the ground meets our feet, the way our limbs coordinate. How, you know, noticing where eyes want to look, where our gaze goes, a starting place is having curiosity and awareness in any moment. And when you do that, you start to get a lot of feedback and the more you do that throughout the day, the more you start to live an embodied life
Taylor Morrison
I really appreciate this. And actually, I love that you mentioned hand washing, because that's one of the practices I talk about in my book. I think a lot of times, and even probably a version of me five years ago, if we would have been talking about embodiment, I would have thought like, that is something that I need to set something up in my life that doesn't already exist to practice embodiment. And everything that you just shared, is really about being present in my body, as things already happening, feeling the warm water on your hands while you're washing them, or being present with walking, instead of just hurrying to get to the bus stop, experiencing the smells as you're cooking. It was funny, as you were talking about the garlic, I just love the smell, I swear, if even if you just all you do is saute some garlic, it seems like you're making the most amazing meal. And as you were describing it, I was my mouth was watering a little bit because I was imagining my kitchen being filled with the smell of garlic, and that scent. And normally my stomach starts to rumble a little bit because I'm anticipating how good that garlic is going to be. And I hadn't even thought of that as an embodied experience. But it truly is. So I'm excited. I'm I'm actually going to cook some spaghetti squash tonight. And I'm like, I gotta chop some fresh garlic to really get into the mood.
Jordan Dann
Yeah, I mean, and as you were talking, I just started to bring my awareness to myself. And this is a moment in our dialogue for me to even check in with my own embodiment. And as I did that I became much more aware of my feet are kind of stuck underneath my desk, and the desk on top of the top of my feet feels really cozy. And I'm also aware as you're talking because of how excited you got, there's just this movement, all through my core up through my head, you know, this kind of brightness that came into my face. Yeah. And I'm like, Oh, I'm feeling feels really safe and exciting to be here with you. Like, I know that because of the experience that I just tapped into in my body. And I think that that's like when it comes to friendships, you know, there's I love this meme that's on the internet about like, you know, cultivate friendships that feel good for your nervous system. You know, our body knows who it feels good to be around. But we have to listen to know.
Taylor Morrison
Yeah, let's push into that a little bit. Because so far, we've really talked about embodiment as like a solitary experience. I'm cooking the food, and I'm in my body, I'm washing my hands, I'm in my body. But what you just shared was like, Okay, we're having this moment in the podcast interview. And your body is telling you something about your experience. So that sounds like it's a positive experience, which I'm glad. I'm enjoying talking to you as well. But let's like step back for a second, what can happen if we're not embodied as we're engaging in our relationships?
Jordan Dann
I mean, I think as another starting place, what's so helpful is being able to differentiate between what's inside and what's outside. Of course, this is like kind of fundamental to psychology, which is, what is me and what is you ,what is a remnant from the past, what is happening now? And many people, especially if they haven't had the conditions, or they haven't set up conditions to be able to differentiate, there's not an ability to discern what's inside and what's outside. And so, so often when we get triggered in our relationships, whether that's intimate partnerships or friendships or work, what's happening inside, what's happening inside, the danger we feel, the anxiety we feel, the freeze that we're experiencing, even sometimes the excitement has origins inside that have more to do with the past than they do with the present. And so I say all that to say like, I guess when it comes to relationships and determining, you know, how embodiment is helpful, is like first being able to know what's yours and know what someone else's and distinguish what happens in the space between the above both. But you know, I think certainly the opposite of what I just experienced with you in terms of feeling grounded and also feeling this kind of pleasant, sympathetic activation in my chest that feels like excitement, certainly I've had plenty of experiences with friends where I feel like I go into freeze much more readily than anything else. With my husband, I go to fight, my survival response. Not so much anymore. But in you know, I've worked hard on that. And he can testify to that. But with my husband, that would be often more to fight. I think, with friends, and in professional experiences, my survival response is more often freeze. I think I feel probably there's more shame, if there's less safety. So you know, I think in my marriage, I'm, I feel safer to fight. In other relationships, I think shame is what comes up. And often, that's when I am, you know, have perceived criticism. So, if I had perceived any criticism in you, either real or imagined, right, because, again, this comes back to this challenge of, am I projecting? Or is it real, the more in touch we get with what's inside and what's of the past, the more we're able to be in the reality of the present. So yeah, I would feel of like, I would feel a stiffness, probably my breath would, would get shallow or even stop. Often, when I'm in freeze, I do very much have a kind of feeling of shame, like hot in the face, or unable to think, there's a real feeling of frozenness, like I can't access myself. And I think, you know, in other friendships and embodiment experiences that I have had in the past, this is fear, this like wanting to retreat, like a real feeling of wanting to withdraw, to escape, like I gotta get out of here. And that's often when I have had an experience with a friend who doesn't have awareness of themselves, and doesn't have, is not present with their, I can feel they're not present with themselves. Which has, you know, my organism doesn't like that, because then I don't feel safe.
Taylor Morrison
Thank you for sharing that. So, so many good pieces that you mentioned in there. Understanding, like what's within what's without, what is ours, what is theirs or the external. But also for each of us, I feel like this is a good invitation for us to start to notice what does happen when we're not feeling safe, or we're feeling ashamed, or we're projecting or whatever it is, in the context of relationship that causes our body to respond. And as you were speaking, I was like, Ooh, what happens in me, there's often for me, there'll be a feeling in the pit of my stomach, or sometimes my legs will get really tight, it's like my body physically is freezing. Or depending on the situation, it might be something in my throat, where my throat is, like, yeah, we're not gonna say anything. And I'm going to clamp just to make sure that you can't say anything, even if you wanted to. So I'd invite people listening to maybe start to bring some awareness to what goes on with you, because that certainly does impact our relationships, if we're physically having physical manifestations of not feeling as safe or of whatever emotion is beneath the surface. On the other side of things, because I don't want to leave us on a downer note and be like, Yeah, your body's telling you like, You're not safe, this isn't great, it's getting in the way of your relationships. Our bodies can also when we are aware of them add so much richness and depth to the way that we are relating to each other. And a lot of times I think people's minds go to like, Okay, our bodies in relationship, that has to be sexual. And it doesn't. Our bodies are experiencing the ways that we relate to people all the time, whether that's platonic or sexual. So I'm curious to hear from you what's possible, like, Can you paint a picture for us of what's possible when we're able to access the wisdom of our body in the context of our relationships?
Jordan Dann
Yeah, I mean, I am kind of broad umbrellas. I kind of like feel that everything categorizes under danger and safety. And I think when we feel safe, it's like, a moment ago, I was feeling this groundedness in my legs with you and this like excitement in my chest. I felt I haven't felt super awake today. But all of a sudden, I was like, Oh, I'm in connection. I feel more awake and I feel more alive and I feel more actually more or like myself, so I think that's a piece like, do we feel energized? Do we feel here, do we feel present and when we do, it's such a quality of aliveness, of connection of belonging, of nourishment. You know, I think when we feel safe enough, we can, if we feel safe enough, we can be vulnerable. And the experience of crying with a friend, being able to be held, to feel the organismic release of tears and how satisfying that can be for our nervous system. And then there's more oxygen, and there's a feeling of, I let that go, I don't have to be alone with that anymore. Thank you for holding this with me. There's some physiological relief, more space, more space through our chest more, more space in our throat, more muscle relaxation. I think create play is so huge, you know, we can only play if we feel safe. And like being silly with a friend, laughing with a friend or colleagues or you know, that feeling of playfulness of I can really let go. I can experiment. There's a feeling of such aliveness and expansiveness and safety inside of that. And I think, when certainly my embodied experience of my own creativity is like, wow, so so expansive, like I can get so kind of in my kind of behavior of the day, it can feel like things get narrow but when I can play and I can experiment with voices, or creativity or with language, then I feel super alive. And I feel like the world is open, and I'm open to the world. So those are some of the positive embodied experiences in relationship I can name.
Taylor Morrison
Yeah, and those all sound like yes, sign me up, I want those things. Even if it is scary, like I can think of those moments of crying with someone or being like, feeling the sensation of tearing up and having that internal conversation, is it safe for me to do it with this person? What are they going to think about me, and then having that decision, I'm going to go there, I'm going to cry, and having that be, fortunately, really well received. And I loved all of the thoughts around playing together. And these are things that if we want to, so I'm curious what your thoughts are on this. My thought that just popped into my head is, this might be especially true for people who have plenty of relationships, but are still feeling lonely in them. I wonder if you could show up to those places where you're feeling lonely, and choose to be really grounded in your body and present, how that would change your sensation, the sensation of feeling lonely in a crowded room. Because I know when I felt lonely in a crowded room, I wasn't actually in that crowded room, I was in my head, thinking about that person's judging me, that person is more successful than me, that person doesn't like me. And I wonder if I was just experiencing being in the room with those people, how that would change my relationships change the fun I was having, changed my perspective on the situation. So that's my hypothesis that I'm throwing out there. You are obviously the expert on this. So what's your take on that?
Jordan Dann
Well, I mean, I just keep coming back to the Body Keeps the Score. And being able to feel like the conditions can be safe in the present. But we won't be able to feel safe in the present if we haven't resolved the past, if we don't know how the past is showing up in the present. Like even the concept of a strong friend, like being someone who has to have it all together or is like impenetrable. That's not reality, because that's just, all human beings, no matter who you are, have the same palette of the human experience, the physiological states and emotions that are a part of that. We all no matter where we come from, have at the heart, that shared experience. And so, you know, I get curious about who that strong friend, who they had to be in their families, who they had to be in their, you know, community that they had to put away these other parts of themselves, the parts of them that could be vulnerable or imperfect, or take risks. So I think, you know, as a starting place, it's like, again, I come back to this place of like, yeah, it's safe. And it's, it may be safe in a room to be yourself. But if it wasn't safe in the past to be yourself, you might not know that you can do that now in the present.
Taylor Morrison
Yeah, it's like I'm, I would still be in that room where it wasn't safe. And until I can resolve and leave that room, I'm not going to be able to be in the room where I actually am in the present
Jordan Dann
Beautifully phrased. Yeah
Taylor Morrison
I love that perspective. And it sounds like depending on what went into your past experience that shaped where you are, it might be you sitting with yourself and doing some reflection, it might be needing to bring in some out side support, we talk about the concept of having a self care support system. And that might be where you're working with a therapist or some other practitioner to help you regain that safety in your body so that you can be present in all the beautiful ways that you outlined in your body.
Jordan Dann
Yeah, because what you named as the sixth, like, if you feel lonely in your friendships, it's like, yeah, what parts of yourself are you not seeing? And what parts of yourself are you then not seeing that you can show to others. Those parts, the vulnerable parts, the, I don't know, parts, the shameful parts, it's hard to feel lonely, when it's safe enough to show all those facets of your humanity. It's like, that's when we really start to feel connection and belonging is when we can share the parts of ourselves that were so salacious, or provocative or controversial, or, you know, not wanted. That's when belonging really starts to happen is when those parts of ourselves get seen, but we can't let others see them until we see them.
Taylor Morrison
Yeah. And that's really become a theme in this season is this reminder that like when we're talking about relationships, it's easy to be like, it's all about the other person and how I relate to the other person. But it's often no, let's see how I'm relating to myself. And then that's how I bring it to other relationships. So thank you for underscoring that, because this has come up in different ways, in different conversations that it starts with your relationship with yourself. And it sounds like the same is true when we're having this conversation around embodiment.
Jordan Dann
My starting place is always myself, because I can't I have no agency or control when it comes to someone else. But I have a lot of agency and control when it comes to myself. So whenever something agitates me, triggers me, I always deep dive inside first, to really sort out what the origins of the disruption are. It's the most important relationship we have through our whole lives is with ourselves. We're the only ones that are here, from beginning to end.
Taylor Morrison
Absolutely. And like, it goes back to what you were saying about our body being our home. And like, most of us don't live in the same place for our whole life, physically, but our bodies get to be a home for us in our whole life. And like, it makes so much sense to make that relationship and to make it feel like a home. This is giving me things that I want to reflect on further, that I'm gonna start to bring the conversation to a close. But the final question that I've been asking all of our guests this season, is if you could offer one piece of advice to strong friends or people who are maybe trying to step away from that archetype of the strong friend, what would it be, and it could be related to embodiment or anything that you want it to be, one piece of advice.
Jordan Dann
What's so great about being a loan shark in the world? What's so noble about not needing the origin of close, I mean, life is only for having relationships. Like everything we do is a mechanism for a relationship, whether we're making art or we are working in whatever profession is, if we're having a you know, an intimate partnership, our friendships. It's like everything. It's the most important thing So, if the most important thing is being in relationship, and I certainly know, I think we could put a good study together that would, that would prove this evidence, that depth of connection and intimacy occurs from meeting one another, then what's so noble about not needing anything? Because that's just gonna leave you unsatisfied and out of connection.
Taylor Morrison
What a powerful way for us to end our conversation. And I'm sure for many people, they're like, feeling like this is just the beginning, because you shared so much wisdom, and we barely scratched the surface of your knowledge and your expertise. So Jordan, if people want to stay connected with you, how can they do that?
Jordan Dann
Yes, so Instagram is really where I like to hang out the most. I'm on TikTok, as well. But Instagram is really like my, that's really my community. And there's such an incredible conscious relationship community there. And I just launched my Relationship Transformation Course, The Art of Rupture and Repair, which I am so excited to give a coupon code to your audience, which is really all of the fundamentals of creating intimate partnership. And there are mobile dialogues, so much psychoeducation and incredible resource library, it is truly like it was a decade long process of creating it and I am so excited that it's out in the world now. And for anyone who's wanting to develop an embodied relationship, an embodiment practice, my book, Somatic Therapy for Healing Trauma is available on Amazon. And it's a workbook. So it's really, really practical. And it's like being in dialogue with a coach or with a therapist.
Taylor Morrison
Lovely. Those sound like amazing resources, being in your community on Instagram, perhaps exploring your course on relationships and grabbing that book. I know the folks listening love a book, and a course, so you picked the right things to share with us. Jordan, thank you so much for being on the podcast.
Jordan Dann
Thank you so much for having me. And my body thanks you too.
Taylor Morrison
Oh, that's so sweet!
Wow, that one piece that Jordan said, What's so noble about not needing anything? Because that's just going to leave you unsatisfied in our connection. I felt like she was speaking directly to me. And I would guess that I'm not the only one. Hopefully, this episode gave you lots of good reflection. And if you'd like to continue your reflection, be sure to grab The Strong Friend's Inner Workbook. You can get it at the link in our show notes. And if you loved this episode, my request is that you tell someone, share it in your story, text it to a friend. Talk about it over coffee. And if you're feeling extra generous, take a moment to review the pod on Apple Podcast. Even if you don't listen there. It makes a difference and it helps us get amazing guests like Jordan. Thank you so so much for listening. Thank you as always for your expertise and take care.
