In today’s episode, Taylor and guest Jessica Wilson, MS, RD, go deep into the heart of diet culture. We talk about body shame, “healthy” eating, the difference between dietitians and nutritionists, and the importance of finding the right expert depending on your individual needs. This episode is packed with eye-opening discussion and powerful insights that will leave you questioning the rules you’ve been taught.
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Meet today’s guest
Jessica Wilson (she/her) is a Clinical Dietitian, Consultant and Author of “It’s Always Been Ours: Rewriting the Story of Black Women’s Bodies”. Her experiences navigating the dietetic fields as a Black, queer dietitian have been featured on ABC Prime Time News, public radio shows and in print media. Jessica has worked as a trauma-informed Clinical Dietitian since 2007 and believes that her clients’ lived experiences can be more important to their care than what is considered to be “best practice.” She speaks openly and candidly about the harm caused to our patients by designating individual identities as risk factors, rather than targeting the structural inequities and violence that marginalized individuals must endure. She hosts a weekly podcast, “Making it Awkward”.
Connect with Jessica Wilson:
Taylor Elyse Morrison
You're listening to Inner Warmup. I'm your host, Taylor Elyse Morrison, Founder and Author of Inner Workout, ICF certified coach, and fellow journeyer. In 2017, I set out to build a life that didn't burn me out, and I found my life's work in the process. On Inner Warmup, we talk about how self-care and inner work show up in your relationships, your career, your schedule, and then the conversations you have with yourself. We get practical, we get nuance, and we're not afraid to challenge wellness as usual. So, take a deep breath and get curious. This is where your inner work begins. Today's guest is Jessica Wilson.
Taylor Elyse Morrison
Jessica is a Clinical Dietitian, Consultant, and Author of It's Always Been Ours, rewriting the story of Black Women's Bodies. Her experiences navigating the dietetic field as a Black queer dietitian have been featured on ABC Primetime News, public radio shows, and in print media. Jessica has worked as a trauma-informed Clinical Dietitian since 2007 and believes that her clients' lived experiences can be more important to their care than what is considered to be "best practice". Y'all, this conversation is as useful as it is thought provoking. Jessica shares why she continues to bear this title of dietitian, even though she doesn't wholeheartedly agree with the field's approach. She demystifies how we can find a dietitian without embracing diet culture and offers a host of resources for reframing our relationship with our bodies. Jessica, thank you for being on the show.
Jessica Wilson
Thanks for having me. This will be fun.
Taylor Elyse Morrison
So, I told you this before we pressed the record button, but I was genuinely so, so excited when you said yes to being a guest on the podcast. You have a lot of experience as a dietitian, but what's really interesting to me is that you're also reshaping what the field looks like. So, what I wanna do is rewind a little bit back to the beginning of your career, what initially brought you to this work?
Jessica Wilson
So It wasn't until January that I really put all this together, and I can say why in a bit. But growing up, I was a black kid in a predominantly white, like, area of Sacramento, which just meant, like, inherently my, like, doctors were real white or, like, steeped in whiteness. And I was just a large kid, very tall, very big kid, and that meant, for folks who are familiar, that I was trending at the top of the growth charts, like my entire childhood - big kid, but that was a problem for my doctors, which then became one for my mom. I just looked recently back at my medical record, and they, like, took me to, like, bone specialist to see, like, that my bones were the age of something. Like, the age of a something year old, you know, and I was younger than that year old. Like, it was this huge, big deal. Endocrinologist, like, trying to figure out what the problem with my body was.
Jessica Wilson
And I thought I had remembered that I met with a dietitian as a child. I thought it was a - I looked back at my medical record. I think it was 6 where they were, like, giving me nutrition advice. And so, I feel in my memory that I was a child, of course, like, I grew up thinking that my body was like a problem to be solved because people were always just telling me it was wrong. And how could that not relate into me wanting to become -and actually, I didn't necessarily want to become a dietitian. Somebody just said you could be a dietitian and study nutrition, and I was like, sure. Fine. I don't I wasn't really called to do, like, college type things at the time.
Jessica Wilson
And that was the part of a story that I had forgotten until this January of 2023 when the American Academy of Pediatrics put out their guidelines for weight in kids, basically putting kids on diets early, and I was like, oh my. This is not okay. Like, this is how I ended up where I am and where many people end up having eating disorders. So, yeah, in January, we really put all those pieces together, but I got to, like, where I am now because all of my schooling was by white folks. I was the only black student throughout all of my clinical rotations, and I was taught about black people and what black people eat and everything that we as dietitians should be doing to, like, change how black people eat. I ended up working in athletics at the University of Oregon, and it was just like a completely different world than what I had expected athletics would be. You know, we learned that athletes eat very - we'll just say clean - for a silly word because they have to be in tip top shape. Like, we were just shoving food at them to try and get them to eat more.
Jessica Wilson
It was like, you know, chocolate milk and goldfish, and string cheese, it was just like thrown at these athletes to get them to eat more. And I was like, I'm already learning and unlearning some of the things that I've been taught about, like, what is "healthy". And then I started working at a student health center and working with students with eating disorders, and most of the students were not thin and had anorexia. And I was like, this is not the calories in, calories out that I have learned. So, it's a very long way of being like that was like the beginning of my unlearning and, like, how I became a dietitian.
Taylor Elyse Morrison
I appreciate you taking that, us on that journey. Part of it is just, I love hearing anyone talk about their career journey because the tendency for so many of us is to think, you just like follow these steps and you check these boxes and then your career happens and then you hear someone talk about it. And you're like, I actually have this core memory unlocked and realize that this thing happened that affected me and that I made the choice to be here. And now I'm just now seeing how it all truly comes together. What's interesting to me is that you, clearly, I mean, you talked about it in your schooling and being taught by people who didn't look like you. You've got some qualms with the way that the dietician in the industry, I guess, works. And also, you're continuing to hold that title and continuing to do this work. So, it seems like you find some value in this work.
Jessica Wilson
Definitely. Typically, in my life, I'm not a, like, make change from the inside situation. Like, I just, like, prefer to dismantle institutions, burn bridges, and walk away. But I also really like working with clients with disordered eating, with trans and non-binary clients, which is a lot of the work that I do right now. And you just can't get those jobs if you don't have those letters after your name. It's not like I could consult as a dietitian or not. Like, I can do consulting. I could do other things, but I can't do clinical work and not be a dietitian.
Jessica Wilson
So, there is that. We have our membership organization, the academy of nutrition and dietetics, and I'm not a member of that. So, like, those are places that I, like, choose my battles because the academy is very fat phobic and racist. And so that's where I, You know, say no, thank you, and yes, I will stay in.
Taylor Elyse Morrison
Yeah. It's a dance that you have to do. And I think it's a dance that all people, especially who holds marginalized and multiple marginalized identities, you've gotta pick, like, What are your battles? Where do you wanna fight? and Where do you just say like, okay, I gotta deal with it. So, you have talked about how you hold the title of dietitian. And something that I think is really important that we do on this podcast that we clarify terms in this age of, like, social media and the Internet where it feels like everyone can just, like, decide that there's something. It can be really confusing. So, can you tell us just like in layperson's terms, what exactly is a dietitian? And then to follow that up, how is it similar or different to a nutritionist?
Jessica Wilson
Sure. This is a great question. I'm so glad you asked. A lot of people don't. So, a dietitian is one who has done an undergrad program that is accredited that, you know, ships people into clinical internships. So, dietitians now, will have done an undergrad program, a dietetic internship, which is a year where you have different rotations and, like, classes that are graduating now will have Master's degrees as well. I have a Master's in Human Physiology, but people will need to have a Master's of Science or an MA, Master's of Arts, in order to be a dietitian going forward, you can call yourself a nutritionist.
Taylor Elyse Morrison
So, I could just be like, hey, Jessica. Guess what? I've decided since I started interviewing you that I'm a nutritionist.
Jessica Wilson
1000%. There is no designation. There's no title. There's 1,000 and one, I'm sure, certificates online where you could become, like, a certified nutritionist - I don't even know what those are. Oh, there's many TikTok, you know, nutritionists, Instagram influencers who are talking about food as if, you know, they are experts. And this is the part that gets a little fishy for me because, you know, people can be dietitians and still be super fat phobic, super unprepared to work with people with disordered eating or unprepared to work with people of color. So, I think it goes, like, in the same vein of, like, doctors. I'm not going to see someone who calls themselves a doctor when in fact they are not.
Jessica Wilson
But because someone is a doctor, it doesn't mean that they're either competent to work with everyone or not going to cause harm.
Taylor Elyse Morrison
Yeah. It's good for us to be mindful that a nutritionist doesn't mean that you've gone through the same level of training that a dietitian has. And it's also important for us, especially in a situation like this, where the status quo has caused so much harm to lots of people who don't fit the "norm" not to give too much value to the title and assume that they will automatically be able to help you and your specific situation just because they've been through training.
Jessica Wilson
Yes. I would say that nutritionists are people who have not gone through clinical programs are far easier to get caught up in Fad diets like intermittent fasting or, you know, recommend a bunch of, like, food allergy assessments and intolerances and just really not have the context and perhaps the experience to know that, you know, these beds come and go. There might be a study or a few studies on something. It doesn't mean that over time that they've been able to clinically analyze the studies that are touted as expertise. So being able to look and see if there are black people, if there are marginalized people in the study sample. Do they have access to food? Were they inherently privileged? Like, all of these things rather than just looking at a study out of Sweden and being like, well, there's a study. That makes it true. So, I think those are some differences too with the registration of a dietitian versus a nutritionist.
Taylor Elyse Morrison
Thank you for clarifying that. I remember when I first learned that and I was like, oh, there is a difference here and I know at least in Illinois, like a lot of dietitians will call themselves dietitian nutritionist, which in some ways is helpful, but then in some ways it's confusing because then you hear nutritionist and you're like, well, that's half of what this person said when who went through the Master's program. So, clarifying terms, super important.
Jessica Wilson
No. It's good. The registration now is an RDN because I think the academy wanted to, like, capitalize and, like, say they're registered nutritionists and kinda get some clarification in there, but 1000% exactly what you said. Like, it's still not clear Who is what? I just wanted to validate that.
Taylor Elyse Morrison
So, now that we are clear on that distinction, Based on your experience, when do you think it's useful for someone to seek out a dietitian?
Jessica Wilson
This is gonna depend so much on both what the person wants and who the dietitian is. I can tell you We'll just stick to my experience with the beginning of, like, who would not be a good fit for me. I don't typically work with people who are seeking intentional weight loss for just, like, the appearance’s sake. I do understand that there are times when intentional weight loss may be a requirement, say, for gender affirming surgeries and understanding the complexities there. But if somebody were in, I've had so many people be like, I gained 5 to 10 pounds in, you know, the pandemic, I wanna lose it. And I'm just like, I'm just not your girl for that. Like, I am not at all concerned about 5 to 10 pounds or even, you know, like, the 10 to 20.
Jessica Wilson
So those folks are not a lot of people are fine, but because of the culture that we're swimming in, because of everybody who was worried about their pandemic weight gain, like, think they're not fine and are stressed out by, like, any weight fluctuations, especially like weight gain. So, a lot of my job is actually, like, affirming that there's nothing wrong with people. And so that's, you know, oftentimes, there's a one time appointment. People will come in, say, with a bunch of messages, like, about the types of foods that they eat or their cultural foods and, you know, it's like a one and done. I'm like, you're doing a great job at adulting. Like, go for it and keep doing what you're doing. But I tend to work long term with people who have a history of body shame, which has impacted their eating habits, like, growing up as I did. I have a lot of people who have disordered eating, folks who have ADHD and Autism or Autism who are really looking at, like, how to prioritize food, structure food, like, what types of reminders do I need to set in order to make food? Those type of things where I will follow people.
Jessica Wilson
And people oftentimes who are depressed or coming out of stressful situations and their appetite is lost. And then, of course, there are Clinical considerations. So diabetes, high cholesterol, hypertension, and those things like that are often good fits for dietitians, and then everybody will be able to find a dietitian that will likely, you know, either help them lose weight or do whatever it is that they're looking for, but I can only speak to, you know, what I think people could go or might benefit from a dietitian.
Taylor Elyse Morrison
I'm so glad that you queued that up because something that I've been really holding. So, I can't remember the last time I've weighed myself. I think we have a scale somewhere. I think it's out of batteries. My husband told me the other day, like, oh, it's out of battery. So, I'm like, oh, I would not know. When I go to the doctor's office, I always ask, like, can I stand backwards? I just really don't wanna see it's not healthy for me. I can get really obsessive about things.
Taylor Elyse Morrison
And, also, I mentioned this before we started recording. I got diagnosed with ADHD shortly before I turned 30. And I'm realizing, like, oh, there are ways that I'm just struggling to, like, make sure that I fuel myself. So, I've considered maybe I should work with a dietitian. And I'm kind of terrified to because my perception of dietitians is so steeped in diet culture. And that's part of why I was excited to talk with you is because you're someone who is continuing to hold this designation and also be critical of diet culture itself. And so, I guess the question in the midst of me kind of sharing my personal experience is what can we be looking for in a dietitian? Thankfully, I have a partner who, when he works from home, is like, Taylor, did you feed yourself today. Or this morning, he, like, made me breakfast so he would know that I ate breakfast.
Taylor Elyse Morrison
But if he's at work and all of a sudden, it's like 4 PM and I haven't eaten. That's not healthy and not helpful for me, and that is something that it sounds like a dietitian would be really qualified to help me with, and, also, I wanna find someone who's going to not make me spiral in other ways that could be harmful. Like calorie counting for me, I can get so obsessive. It is not good for me.
Jessica Wilson
Yeah. I should have said that earlier. You're right. Somebody who's gonna tell you to count calories, you can, like, immediately fire them. That's a, like, super red flag. But I, you know, asked. I saw your question that you had sent me initially and then so went and asked somebody with ADHD. I actually went and asked Lexi, See who's the through line of my book and tends to stay with us off and on depending on clinical rotations. I asked her what she would recommend or, like, what she would be looking for somebody to help her with her ADHD and eating.
Jessica Wilson
And immediately, she answered, Not a thin white woman. And I don't know if that will resonate. I don't know who's listening to your podcast. But for her, that was like an immediate cue for somebody who would, you know, be able to see her and her complexities and not do a calorie counting who would understand more the complexities of, you know, like, food and body stuff. So, I was like, that's real specific, and thank you for that. There are some specifically targeted folks who do what I think to be, like, a very well-rounded and empathetic, and I don't wanna label it, like, good or bad, but really just like a good job for neurodivergent folks. And then there are some who just, like, label themselves as such because it's the new thing that people are getting and understanding about themselves now. So that said, in addition to what Lexi said, I would say you're right on the calorie anyone who was gonna bring out, like, food models or, like, give you the My Plate nutrition thing, Anybody who's giving you handouts, like, I'm just not really a fan of the handouts because every person is very different.
Jessica Wilson
Anybody who's gonna tell you to look at your weight, absolutely run the other way. Any other, like, self-assessments in those type of ways. For folks with ADHD, I would never say to, like, Have you written things down, especially of what you're eating in order to, like, pay attention to it? Because one, that's another easy way to obsess, and 2, it's just not gonna happen. And that goes for me for sure as well as somebody with epilepsy and who has some ADHD tendencies for sure. Those are things that if I were asking, you know, a dietitian, like, what do you believe? How do you practice? What do you recommend to somebody who's neurodivergent? Those would be some things that I'd be listening for.
Taylor Elyse Morrison
That's really helpful. The calorie counting sounds like for both of us, hard no. But there's a lot of things that could be specific to the ADHD and neurodivergent experience. I'm wondering if there's anything more broadly that's just like 100% red flag. Like calorie counting isn't just an ADHD thing, just in general. That is, and this is as someone who like grew up doing ballet and was around people with very disordered eating. That is not the way to go. Anything else that for you is, like, hard red flag?
Jessica Wilson
Yeah. Having somebody that wants you to weigh yourself or keeping track or logging things. I just am not a fan of for folks who say don't have, like a clinically diagnosed eating disorder. In some of those cases, people will be required to, like, record what they're eating. But for folks who are, you know, just looking to figure out And, like, listen to their body about are they eating enough? Because there are signs without having to write it down, I would say are some, you know, things to listen for. Anything that's gonna make you more, like, vigilant or anxious about your food, I would say it's just not the way to go. Also, if somebody is gonna, like, push a variety of foods to folks who are neurodivergent and, like, ask you know, like, try all foods and, like, feel guilty for repeating foods over and over again. I would just, you know, kinda listen for those type of things too.
Taylor Elyse Morrison
Yeah. I am in the midst of a food obsession right now, even though I ended up throwing half of it away. So, I think it's on the end of it, but it has been like a month long. That's a whole other story, but I definitely am a food repeater. I am married to someone who does not love to repeat food too often. So that does add a little bit of variety, at least in what we're eating when we're sharing a meal. Okay. So, this is really helpful.
Taylor Elyse Morrison
Now, the last piece that I wanna get into is the fact that working with a dietitian, it costs money, even if you have insurance, depending on what type of insurance you have, you're likely still having to pay out of pocket. So, for people who are realizing that there's room for them to shift their relationship to food or they're looking for some support in how they're able to nourish themselves, but they just can't quite swing working with a dietitian. What would you recommend for those folks?
Jessica Wilson
There's a lot of great books out there depending on how academic one wants to be, the more academic ones are 'Fearing the Black Body: The Racial Origins of Fat Phobia' by Dr. Sabrina Strings is a very academic, very dense, but very helpful read I have found for a lot of clients. 'The Body is Not an Apology' by Sonya Renee Taylor is a good one. 'Belly of the Beast' by Da'Shaun Harrison. For folks who are, you know, into memoirs, Kiese Laymon's, 'Heavy' has a really deep dive into all of the ways that, you know, society shows up on our bodies and, like, the choices that we make in order to be less of a threat if, you know, for him as a black man, and sometimes people just resonate with those stories. Oh, you know what? And people who are looking for just, like, a general fun read, I had a client read #Very Fat #Very Brave by Nicole Byer, and that just completely changed her life. She was coming to me with a lot of distress, and, you know, every time I was like, you're fine. you're doing great. Like, yes, you've gained weight, this, that, or the other, but, really, like, you're golden.
Jessica Wilson
And having read this book by Nicole Byer, it's like, Nicole Byer in 100 and plus bikinis all over LA doing very ironic things that are, you know, #Very brave for a fat black woman. But reading this and just seeing a fat person living her best life was really all my client needed to be like, okay. You know, all of these body positive influencers are doing these, like, dramatic photo shoots in these outfits, and Nicole was out there in a bathing suit, you know, on the side of a highway having a great time. So, it's all over the place. There are some great Instagrams out there, of course, you know, I'll recommend mine, but 'rds_for_neurodiversity' is one that I like. Whitney Trotter has one. Alishia McCullough has one. Whitney Trotter, actually, in her bio link Has a BIPOC list of providers who work with eating disorders, and most of them have social media.
Jessica Wilson
I would check those out. So those are some books. And for folks who are looking to watch something similar to Nicole Byers' book, Michelle Butteau has 'Survival of the Thickest' out on Netflix right now. So, there's a wide range from academic to very accessible, you know, resources for people out there and then I you know, there's a lot of communities that I find to be helpful in the Bay Area and some on the East Coast. You know, there's, you know, fat positive book clubs or groups or things like that for people who are just wanting to have more conversations about body stuff and body policing.
Taylor Elyse Morrison
There's a lot of options and there's one option that you didn't mention, which is your book. Do you wanna tell us a little bit about that? You're being so humble.
Jessica Wilson
I'm the worst at self-promotion. Thank you. I wrote a book. It just came out in February called 'It's Always Been Ours: Rewriting the Story of Black Women's Bodies'. Yes. And I take readers through, again, Lexi, from that book has an eating disorder, and it's kind of the thread that, you know, takes us through conversations about who, like, body positivity is for. It's not for black women. It's really for, you know, thin white women.
Jessica Wilson
How do we look at that when we don't, you know, fit those privileged identities and just, like, being more critical of these things. And I have found people, even folks who aren't black women, but who have experienced some body shame in one frame or another to really resonate and, like, put those pieces together. So totally recommend, also, mine is, I would say, in the middle, I definitely laugh, some people cry, but, yeah, I think it's a very accessible read. You know what? I also just started a podcast, and before every, you know, like, denser or more interview piece. I always have, like, a dietitian notes whether it is, like, debunking something or taking a look at how nutrition is portrayed in the media.
Jessica Wilson
So that can be interesting or helpful for folks as well.
Taylor Elyse Morrison
Yeah. Thank you for sharing. This is we'll make sure that this is all included in the show notes because you just gave us, like, a bunch of amazing resources. And I also wanna say thank you for providing a range of, like, If you wanna get really into the academic and the research, you can do this. If you wanna watch a TV show on Netflix, you can do that, or put a podcast on in the background. It's nice to have options. So, the last question I have for you, I'm so curious what your answer is because I'm asking you to narrow down to one myth. So, if there is one myth that you could bust for everyone, and it could be about dietitians or about diet culture or about health.
Taylor Elyse Morrison
What is the myth that you would like to correct?
Jessica Wilson
The first one's easy. Kinda counts, doesn't count. Dietitians don't care what you're eating in the break room. So, when the dietitian walks in, don't feel like you need to hide your white rice or your noodles or donut or whatever it is. That one's real brief. It's the worst when people feel like we're the food police, and, really, I promise we don't care. Okay. But the other thing about health would be that we should, you know, always be striving for health or that health is like a moral imperative when health as it exists now under, you know, medical, apartheid, capitalism, and white supremacy is really just a social construct that we don't think about it in, like, that way.
Jessica Wilson
We think it exists and looks a certain way, but health is richer, is white, is thin, and all these things, like, that don't actually exist as like a state of being. Some people will define health as like an absence of all disease, but, you know, I'll point to, you know, so many of us with chronic disease or disability, so that makes, like, all of us inherently unhealthy if the absence of disease is defined as health, and it's just like this messy web that we see eugenics has played a huge role in defining 'Who is healthy?' We've seen that black enslaved women are responsible for so much of what we know about gynecology. So, Health as it exists is a social construct, and what's going on with your body is really what matters even if medicine disagrees.
Taylor Elyse Morrison
Yeah. That's such a powerful reminder. It's a recurring theme and everything that we talk about at Inner Workout is coming back to, like, you and your self-expertise. And it's great to have other people like you who have gone to school and done a lot of research and have a lot of experience, and also that work, that partnering with experts should be in service of what you know about yourself and not overriding it. And it's so easy for us to forget that. We have an episode this season where we're talking about, like, medical gaslighting and how real that can be, especially when you hold marginalized identities and can be intimidated going into those situations. So, thank you for giving us that reminder. Well, where can people stay in touch with you? You've already mentioned your podcast.
Jessica Wilson
My podcast is Making It Awkward, called 'Making It Awkward'. You can find it on any and all podcast platforms, including YouTube, And you can follow me on Instagram at jessicawilson.msrd. You can follow my attempts at TikTok at byjessicawilson. It's going. I'm getting it. And then you can buy my book, of course. It's 'Always Been Ours'. And I just opened my clinical practice.
Jessica Wilson
So, if folks after this are interested in working with a dietitian, I am seeing folks currently in California virtually, so anywhere in California due to dietitian licensure, and I'm working on getting licensure in New York. So, if folks are interested, you can stay in touch that way as well.
Taylor Elyse Morrison
Okay. So, all the Californians, you can work with Jessica and everyone else. We've got a lot of places where we can stay in touch. Well, thank you so much for being on the show.
Jessica Wilson
Yeah. This was great. Thanks for all the excellent questions.
Taylor Elyse Morrison
Inner warm up is a collaborative effort. It's hosted by me, Taylor Elyse Morrison. Danielle Spaulding provides production support, and it's edited by Carolina Duque. If you enjoyed this episode, share it with a friend. And if you're looking to continue your inner work, Our free Take Care Assessment is a great place to start. On that note, take care.