In today’s episode, Taylor talks with Dr. Cassidy Freitas, a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist. Dr. Cassidy dives into a common strong friend behavior called intellectualizing and explains how it differs from self-awareness.
Mentioned In The Episode:
Meet Today's Guest:
Dr. Cassidy Freitas is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and mom to three with a virtual group private practice in California where she supports parents navigating fertility, pregnancy, postpartum and parenting young children. She hosts the top-rated wellness and parenting podcast Holding Space and shares supportive tips and strategies for millennial parents over on Instagram @drcassidy. You can learn more about her private practice at www.drcassidymft.com!
Connect with Dr. Cassidy Freitas :
Taylor Morrison
You're listening to Inner Warmup where your inner work begins. I'm Taylor Elyse Morrison, creator and author of Inner Workout and you as always are our expert guest. Thanks for being here today. Before I introduce you to our very first guest of this season, I want to remind you about our companion resource for this season, The Strong Friend's Inner Workbook. This workbook expands on the three strong friend archetypes : the picture perfect strong friend, the caregiver strong friend and the intellectual. It's got over 40 reflection questions that will help you begin to explore your strong friend tendencies, focus your inner work, and identify where you need relational support, all of this for just $4.99. You can get that by going to the link in the show notes, or just going to Bitly, b i t . l y slash strong friends. That's strong friends plural.
And now I get the pleasure of introducing you to today's guest. I am recording this intro shortly after hanging up with the guest, Dr. Cassidy Freitas. And y'all, I was just blown away. This exceeded my expectations, the conversation that we had. I can't think of a better way to kick off the interviews for this season. I'm so excited for you to get into the conversation. So let me just tell you real quick about Dr. Cassidy and then you get to hear from her yourself. She is a marriage and family therapist with a virtual private practice out of California. She's also a mom of three, she also hosts a wellness and parenting podcast called Holding Space. And she brings yes, so much wisdom as a therapist. But really what gave me chills, what blew me away was her willingness to bring herself to the conversation, to bring her lived experience to the conversation. Y'all are gonna love it. So without further ado, let's get into it.
I am so excited to have you on the show. Thank you Dr. Cassidy for being here. And I'll give you a second to like check in and say hi, before I dive in, even though my heart is like, I just want to go straight to the content. But I also need people to know who you are.
Dr. Cassidy Freitas
Aw, thank you so much for having me. Taylor. Yes, I'm Dr. Cassidy Freitas. And I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist. I run a group practice, private practice in California where we support virtually, California, primarily parents. And so we work with a lot of moms and dads, and parents who are in the peripartum stage of life and those early years of parenting. And I have three children of my own : eleven, eight and two. I also host the podcast Holding Space, and where we share conversations, you know from with experts from around the world talking about all the messy stuff that comes with having a family and being in relationships and being human. And I also share information on Instagram at Dr. Cassidy. And I'm based in San Diego. I have two dogs who you might hear pitter pattering in the background throughout this conversation because they're up and about right now. You and I have twin dogs. That was something we recently discovered, our dogs look like the emoji, the emoji dog.
Taylor Morrison
They really do.
Dr. Cassidy Freitas
They do. And yeah, I'm really excited to be connected with you today. And to have this conversation which is really near and dear to my heart personally and professionally.
Taylor Morrison
Yeah, I'm so glad you were willing to have this conversation. So this season is all about the concept of the strong friend, which is something that I hear a lot when I'm working with people at Inner Workout and in the Inner Workout community. And we came up with this definition of strong friend that has kind of encapsulated a lot of what we're hearing, like this person who walks through the world, they've got this armor shield up of projected strength, and then that shield it gets in the way of them and other people and it gets in the way of them giving care to themselves and to others in a true way. Definitely gets in the way of them receiving care and ultimately gets in the way of them doing their inner work. So before I get into the topic at hand for today, I would just love to know, do you consider yourself to be a strong friend, a recovering strong friend? What does that look like for you?
Dr. Cassidy Freitas
Ooof, how'd you know? How did you know Taylor? You sniffed me out, didn't you? You were like, you sent me that DM and you're like, I want to record this episode. And here's the topic, and I thought you'd be great. And I was like, and I saw the questions and I'm like, Oh, she knows, they know. Right? And like, so yes, recovering. And part of my recovering journey of, you know, striving to embrace vulnerability and show up with and disarm and take the armor off and let people in, right? Is that even in a moment, where I'm like, oof, these questions, right? It's like, oh, they know, they know that underneath this, like, portrayal of having all of my, can I say s h i t on this podcast?
Taylor Morrison
Yes, you can, yes, you can.
Dr. Cassidy Freitas
Okay, that I don't have my shit altogether, right? And so, yes, recovering. And I don't think that that's something that is like some benchmark that like I'll ever like, fully achieve, right? Like, I think that's just part of the human experience. I'm a constant work in progress, of embracing vulnerability, and that I'm already enough and that I'm good enough, and that I'm lovable. And that even if somebody sees all the messiness that's happening within me, that they'll still love me, and that I'll still be enough. And so, yeah, I absolutely can connect to being the strong friend, strong person. And the difficulty in disarming, taking the armor off and letting people in, for sure.
Taylor Morrison
Thank you for being willing to share that. I think, especially like, knowing that you're a therapist, and you work with people all the time. It's so easy to be like, Oh, yes, you have to have your shit together, when that's actually not the case. And so I think it's refreshing to hear that, yes, there is work that we can continue to do on ourselves. But it's not like we're ever just going to be magically fixed and not have like, some of the doubts that come up or some of the voices that ask us those questions of, are we enough? It's still gonna be there. So yeah, thank you for being willing to share that.
Dr. Cassidy Freitas
Well, thank you for inviting me to, to have a space to name it and share it. And I'm so I'm so curious. I love that you're dedicating a whole season of your podcast to this idea of being the strong friend. And I'm so curious to hear your definition of being the strong friend.
Taylor Morrison
Yeah. So I definitely identify as someone who is a recovering strong friend. And we have these three archetypes of strong friends that we've been working with : the picture perfect strong friend, the intellectual and the caregiver. I think I in the past have tended towards the picture perfect, where I'm like, I have everything together. I'm not going to ask people for help, because then they're going to know I'm not perfect. And people only like me, because I'm perfect. And I've fallen into that a lot. And then I do think there's some of the intellectual, I mean, there's some of all of these archetypes in me, and even plenty more that we haven't even conceptualized yet. But I also see the intellectual showing up too, where it's so easy, especially because I do this work, to know all of these concepts, to know like, theoretically, how I could work through something, but then not really sit in it. It's like, okay, I know, I'm sad. But knowing that I'm sad is not the same as like allowing myself to sit in the sadness.
Dr. Cassidy Freitas
Yes. Oh, my gosh, that intellectualizing which like we can kind of pretend and feel like is healing, right? But just keeps us, keeps the armor on in so many ways, right? As you were mentioning those three archetype,. I was like, in my mind, check, check, check. Like, I could relate to all three of them. Yeah, so I can absolutely connect to this experience. And it's really, I think, helpful for me to know that I'm in similar company with someone who can also connect to this and, and be willing to embrace the vulnerability that comes with saying, Yeah, this has been a part of my experience. I know for me, the minute that I name it, there's a part of me and it's the protector part of me. That is really scared that by disarming and asking that part of me to go in the backseat and, you know, not rule this conversation, not rule this relationship, not protect me. It's scary. Like I think vulnerability, really, when we step into it, is a very, like, shaky experience. It's really scary. So even I think, right, like, if I name it, then then it makes me feel like, Oh, well, now I have to not be the strong friend in these relationships. And I think there's something important to name to that part of me that gets really scared is I think I can tell that part of me that gets really scared and naming that, that protector part, that I understand why it showed up. There's like a long history and story and narrative of experiences for why that part of me felt like it had to show up to keep me safe in different situations based on what I observed or personally experience. And you know what, that part, I don't need to kick it out of the car, like I might kick in the back seat. But I think that part of me, that protector part's still coming along for the ride, because there are some situations, some people that haven't earned the right necessarily, to have access to my vulnerability. And so I think that it's a nuanced relationship with that protected part. Does that make sense?
Taylor Morrison
Absolutely. And something that I'm really passionate about is bringing nuance into these types of conversations. Because we as humans, like we love either or thinking. We love like, it is this or it is that. And when we're talking about self care and inner work and healing, it's rarely this or that. It's both and, and it's nuanced. And it's acknowledging that like, what works for you in this moment, may be different than what works for me in this moment, which is probably different than what's going to work for both of us a few months from now. Yeah, it's messy.
Dr. Cassidy Freitas
Yeah, and it's not linear. It's not this or that. And yeah, our brain loves both of those things, like linear process, and this or that, right? Because it, if we think about the brain, like the brain's like, primary job is to keep us safe. And when, when that stress response is ramped up, even even just a smidge, right, like, which think about just the human experience, like I think a lot of times, in our modern day life, that stress response is turned up at least a smidge, if not more than a smidge. And when we're in that state, our brain needs to put things in this or that categories. And that usually this or that is like life or death, right, threat or not threat. And that works super well. And like tunnel vision, like very linear, like, in order to survive, I need to do this one thing, and here is the tunnel vision of how I get to safety. You know, in a situation where like, our house is on fire, that, we want that part of us that system to rev up and turn on. But there are so many times when our house isn't on fire, but our body and our brain is responding in that same sort of threat, not threat, life, death scenario, which makes things very all or nothing, right. And but it's frustrating, because it is, nuance is frustrating. It's like ugh, like, how do I make sense of the world around me if I'm having to hold all of this nuance within myself and within this, within my relationships. But, you know, I think that flex, beginning to become mindful of slowing down enough to hold space for nuance, I think is a very worthwhile muscle to tone within ourselves. Because I think that it actually can bridge a lot of compassion, like self compassion for ourselves, compassion for those around us. And I think we, I think our whole world would be better off if people were able to slow down enough and make enough space to hold nuance.
Taylor Morrison
Absolutely. That is such a beautiful vision of the world. And I want to bring us back to something we talked about, like briefly. When you were asking me about my strong friend tendencies and I was talking about like how I can get in my head, I can intellectualize and pretend as if that is me doing the work. You can't see me listeners, but I was putting that in quotes or healing. I've started to hear the term intellectualizing a little bit more. It's definitely something that has been brought up in my own therapy sessions. I'm curious, could you just tell us what intellectualizing is because I think it's something a lot of people with strong friend tendencies like to do.
Dr. Cassidy Freitas
Yeah, for sure. And you know what, I want to speak to that from like, personal lived experience as the strong friend or a recovering strong friend. You know, when I am out to happy hour with a friend, and we're catching up on our lives, and, you know, hoping, the typical way that it goes is, I'm the first you know, to like jump in, or even if they ask me first how I'm doing, it's just like, good, good. And then I go right into, like, how are things going for you and they begin to you know, they share and then and then yeah, maybe then there's either something I can relate to, or they, they check in on me too. Hopefully that, you know, hopefully they are and the good ones do. They they keep checking in even though as a strong friend, you tend to not, you don't tend to give much right back, in terms of your own realness. But what it can sometimes look like is if I am going to share that I'm experiencing something, that I'm having a hard, that that is hard or painful, I spend a lot of time in the intellect of it, right? Like, here are some of the like, things that I'm learning about this thing that I'm struggling with, right, like anxiety, or, you know, my husband and I are going through a really hard stage. And this is something that I think he's struggling with, you know, and that that is that is making it hard for me, you know, our family or, and it stays very intellectual, stays very top heavy, meaning like cognitive. And the fear, I think that and the way that, the way in which that that keeps me protected is, the longer that I stay in the part of my brain that is the like, logical, practical, rational, like academically oriented part of my brain. It keeps me from going into my body. And I am maybe terrified in that moment to go into my body, if I go into my body, I'm going to feel things. If I feel things, that might bubble up into an outward expression of that sensation, I might start crying, I my face might start turning red, like I might start to really access the deep pain that I'm in. And the vulnerability that that would bring forward in the interaction would feel very, so scary and so uncomfortable, that I can't allow it to happen. Because what is what is the fear I think in that moment, like underlying? I think that if I really, really pushed it right, like, Okay, I'm afraid that if I feel, if I allow myself to go in my body, I'm going to start to cry. Okay, so let's say I did start to cry? What would that mean? Well, if I started to cry, then they would look at me as someone who's maybe sad, yes, but maybe also weak or doesn't and then what would that mean? Well, then they might wonder, like, how is it that I'm a therapist right? Like, how is it like, how is it that I even can do this work to support others if I'm falling apart? Well, what would that mean? Well, if that was the case, then that might mean that the world might begin to see that I'm not cut out for this work, right? Or that, you know, my children, right? Like, or, or my friends, like, they can't rely on me because I'm, quote unquote weak within that vulnerability, and then if that's the case, what would that mean? Well, then I wouldn't have a job, I would be alone. And I think like, at the core, what we're all afraid of, is to be alone. And death. You know, I think that like our brain is like constantly looking to keep us safe from dying. And we oftentimes, you know, our ancestors had to be in groups to survive, like, those are the ones who did survive is like, so we're very group connected, oriented. And so the lie that these protector parts tell me is you have to stay strong, in order to stay connected, in order for them to stay here with you now. And, you know, I think that when I really look at the roots and history of intellectualizing and perfectionism for myself, I look to my parents, and, and then I look to the family system around me, but then also to the systems around them that influenced the things that they learned that then I observed or absorbed or experienced as their daughter. And, you know, both my parents are, they were public defenders. So attorneys. And they both have different histories that I think really brought them to the work that they do. And for my mother, she's a Hispanic woman who never really believed that she could be a lawyer, it was never even something she thought that she could pursue until a roommate of hers was like, I think you might be able to do this, right. And so she took that from someone else, an outside source as encouragement to apply. She got into her program through a diversity program, she always shares. And she has since shared with me that she felt like she got in through the side door. And in that, felt like an imposter. And also thought felt like she had to prove herself. Walked into her first law school class, and no one looked like her, a bunch of mostly white males. And she walked right out. And she eventually stepped back in. But you know, what her and I, as I've been doing my own work, and then going to her to kind of understand a little bit more about things, like why she never apologized, right? As a parent, when I was, when we were growing up, right, like how I really put on a pedestal as like, picture perfect, and, and that was reinforced by the fact that she never apologized for anything, you know. And I just saw her as this, like, very strong, independent woman. But in our conversations, as she's began to disarm, has been able to share with me how she has always felt like she had to be perfect, in order to fit into the spaces that she was trying to fit into, to get to where she is now, which is a judge, right with, like all of this power and agency. But in order for her to do that, within the you know, white dominant culture, which I think is where perfectionism really has its roots from what I'm learning from the folks that I'm I've been reading up on and learning from, is that there was no room for her to be imperfect. She had to be perfect. And she couldn't be vulnerable, she couldn't show any weakness. And so she used intellectualizing and perfection as the armor to show up in those spaces and to get where she where she is, but I think the cost of that is like, recently, we were, she was getting an award for all of her work in this field. And, you know, as they were speaking about her at this beautiful event to honor her, as they were speaking about her, I looked over her and she just kept shaking her head, no, and I asked her about it after. And she was like, I still just feel like at some point, they're gonna realize that like, I don't deserve this, and I'm an impostor, you know, and for my dad, he grew up very poor. And education was like the ticket to safety, right, like, out of poverty. And in that, similarly, perfectionism, and intellectualization, right, like, became very important.
And then I look at myself as a child with these two parents who were so wonderful in so many ways. And, and yet, I felt a ton of pressure to be perfect. I didn't feel like my feelings were validated in moments when, like, you know, because there wasn't a lot of repairing or apologizing happening, right, and just and just what I observed. And I think that what I learned early on was that in order to survive in the world, you can't be weak and emotion is weakness, you have to be perfect, you need to get straight A's. Otherwise, you will not fit in with this family system, otherwise, you will not get a good job. And you could, like I think, ultimately, like the fear is like die alone, right? Like, as a child, we just want to be, we want to do whatever we can to bring our attachment figures closer to us because that is how we survive when we're young. And so I had to figure out how to fit into the system, not just family system, but the academic system right, here in America, how to fit into right the system of our culture as a as a woman, right. So I think that when I when I begin to look at the context of all that, I think context is a really meaningful bridge to compassion, both for my parents, right, like my family system, but also for myself. And so that part of me that wants to intellectualize and be perfect with my friends and be the strong friend isn't something that I need to like kill off right or like, hate about myself or shame even further, you know, even further shame myself for, I think it's, it's a part of me, a very, very, a part of me that has been with me for a very long time to protect me. And I can have a lot of compassion because I understand the context now of why it showed up. And I can tell that part of myself now, hey, you've been working so hard for so long, and helping so many along the way, with your strength. And you deserve to be supported too. And this isn't sustainable. You know, like, I know, like what we're ultimately ultimately afraid of is like death and being alone. But like, if we, actually actually part of me, strong friend part of me, like, I think you're actually keeping people at a distance. So even though you're surrounded or connected, you still feel alone. And the stress of not letting people in, can kill you from like a health perspective, right? Like just having that lack of support, and always having to be the one to carry and shoulder the burden of a relationship. And I think that that journey I'm still in right now. But exploring the context, and having that compassion for myself has been a big part of it.
Taylor Morrison
Thank you so much for sharing. And I feel like that was a really beautiful example of that that piece that you said about context being such a beautiful bridge to compassion. And for those of us who are listening and exploring this season, to think about like, okay, as we're not just talking about the idea of being a strong friend, but also thinking about some of these behaviors that we might do, like intellectualizing, I love that you weren't demonizing the fact that it can feel safer to be in your head than in your body. You're acknowledging and naming that, and then getting curious about okay, why might that be? What is that protector side of me trying to do? And what's been interesting for me, as I continue to do this work is to realize that, just like you said, I think that I am allowing myself to stay in community and showing up as perfect or intellectual or as the caregiver is keeping me in community when in fact, it's keeping me from being able to connect with people deeply. Something that I'm wondering is because the people in the Inner Workout community, we tend to be pretty self aware. Like, we know things about ourselves, we know our strengths, we know our areas of opportunity. We also like for some people, not everyone who's listening, but for some people, it's relatively easy for them even to realize, oh, yeah, I'm showing up as intellectualizing right now. And here's how my family system could impact that. But I'm wondering, like, what's the difference between staying in the intellectualizing place? And getting to a place of actual self awareness?
Dr. Cassidy Freitas
Yeah. So self awareness has some ingredients that intellectualizing doesn't, and it's primarily interconnected, is vulnerability, and getting into our body. If those two things sound awful to you, it's not funny, but like, I laugh, because I can relate, then I get it, because I get you. I am you, I was you, right? Like, getting into our body when we've spent so much time not connected to our body, because there may have been plenty of experiences. And it doesn't have to be capital T traumas, right? Like this big thing that happened where you had to feel disconnect from your body in order to survive, right? Like, it could just be like little teeny, paper cuts, little lowercase t traumas throughout your life where, you know, you were feeling something big. And, you know, it was big to you. But then somebody said, like somebody invalidated your experience, right? Like, or just sent you to your room or made you feel like you were too much or not enough, or just didn't notice, right. Sometimes it's not something that happened to us, but something that we didn't receive, or even gosh, even like, I have memories, and this is like just really commonplace parenting, you know, I've definitely done it too, where when I was little, and I wasn't hungry, and you know, somebody said, You have to finish this or that on your plate, right? Or like, my grandmother would say, you have to finish that glass of milk before you get off your chair. And I didn't, my body was saying no. But this authority figure was saying that I'm wrong. What I'm feeling in my body is wrong. And I'm supposed to just not listen to my body and consume this thing or eat this thing. right? And like, gosh, how many times have I said to my kid, can you just eat one more chicken nugget? And it's just like it's so commonplace. And like, this isn't about like, making anyone feel guilty or shameful for doing those things like we all do them. And yet, you know, what I want to do differently now as a parent is like, is catch those moments because actually the only person who knows what it feels like in your body is yourself, right? And I want my child to, even if they can't have the ice cream, there's something in their body that really wants the ice cream. And I can validate like, you really want the ice cream, you really want more screen time and set the boundary, while still supporting them in knowing that their feelings in their body are real and matter. They can continue to have like desires. And I think that our parents, my parents generation didn't have the support, or the knowledge or the awareness of how to how to do that and that kids need that, right. So I think what I spent a lot of time and a lot of us spend a lot of time doing was disconnecting from our body. Because the world told us that the things we were feeling in our body were too much. Or when we felt things that felt like too much, we didn't learn how to stay in it and tolerate it. And so then it makes so much sense that we become disconnected from our body. And we don't access vulnerability because we don't know what to do once we open that door and access it right. We don't feel like we could handle it, I can't handle it, you know, or people will see that I'm too much, you know, and that'll push somebody away.
So I think the big difference, the ingredients for self awareness, and like really doing the deeper work, doing that inner workout, like you say, is I really do think it requires vulnerability, and tapping into our body, right? And so what does that look like? Okay, I'm having the thought that I'm too much. And I don't want them to see all of this so that my armor wants to like, protect me. But what if I took a moment to notice the thought of I'm too much, and really came into my body and allowed myself to see where that shows up in my body. And for me, I'm too much if I'm tapping into it right now. It's like showing up like, there's like a little pit in my stomach. But then there's like like a crawling sensation from like, my chest into my throat and it feels like it might show up in my eyes and like my eyes might start to water. And if I share with somebody, an experience that I'm having that reflects that either like I'm too much, or I'm not enough, those two things as opposite as they are, they tend to come together, right? I might start to cry and that those tears, that fluid dripping out of my eyes might invite someone to ask more questions. And if I begin to do that, whether it's in therapy or with a friend, then I start to not just have the intellect or the insight into this is something I experience or maybe what the definition of it is. But I have to start to begin to look at, or I get to begin to look at where it comes from. And in that that's actually where healing happens. So intellectualizing might be a first step right, just beginning to name some of the things but I oftentimes find that when we begin to do some of the deeper more self awareness, healing work, that even what we intellectualize, there's more nuance to it, or an even deeper understanding that we gain access to and the actual healing gets to happen because we're coming at it from like a more holistic perspective which includes vulnerability and includes getting into our bodies.
Taylor Morrison
Yeah, I really appreciate that as viewing intellectualizing is not as and it gets back to the either or thinking, it's not like I can intellectualize or am self aware. But intellectualizing might be my entry point and might be what feels safe to begin with. And even sometimes intellectualizing may not feel all that safe. For some people, it's a big step to say, I'm having this thought, or I'm experiencing this emotion. So that's something worth celebrating. And then as you start to feel more comfortable sitting in that more, I just love that like perspective shift even for me who can be like, okay, Taylor, stop intellectualizing. It's like, I can start saying, hey, great job, you noticed that Taylor, now what's underneath that? So you just changed a little bit of how I'm going to be talking to myself. Something that is related to intellectualizing and has been something that I've been noticing, I'm guessing you've been noticing it is there's a lot of therapy speak right now in the mainstream like we're using terms even intellectualizing is a term that comes from therapy. But there's also things like gaslight, or trauma bonding or narcissism that have roots in therapy that now everyone's just kind of out here using, some using with the original definition. Oftentimes not. And I'm just really curious to hear your thoughts on this, like, what are the benefits of us having some shared language, but I'm also curious about how it can get in the way of what we're ultimately trying to do, which is to build connection and to heal.
Dr. Cassidy Freitas
Yeah. So I think there is so much beauty and power in shared language, like even you know, when I got my PhD, I did my dissertation on postpartum depression in dads, and my dissertation was actually about, it's the technical term, is it was a Delphi study where I brought experts from around the world to support us in creating a shared language and understanding of this experience, so that we could begin to talk about it more and do more research on it, because it was very underdeveloped area of research. And so I think there's so much power in having shared language, and just even having a word to describe an experience. And also, I think that, you know, on social media, in a little box, right, when we're defined, like when, you know, I think it's so it's so beautiful, that we have so many therapists now in these big digital spaces, really shedding a light on and like opening the door, right, to all of this knowledge, and demystifying therapy. But I think that it's really hard to capture an experience in a box or in a post because of the nuance, and because of the importance of context. And so I think that a lot of times these these terms, having a shared language is so supportive, and we can definitely, it can definitely be the first step to someone feeling like, oh, my gosh, there's a word for this. And I'm not alone. And that can be a beautiful bridge to getting support. But I think also sometimes, if we don't hold that these terms, the necessity of these terms coming with an understanding of the nuance of different experiences and the importance of context for each individual experience. I think sometimes it can be weaponized, you know, like, towards ourselves or towards others. I've heard a lot of folks like, say, you know, you're gaslighting me or right? Even in saying that, like, the action might be gaslighting, right. So there's, there's, there's so many ways in which it can be unfortunately, weaponized or misunderstood. And, or someone feeling like more shame, because of the lack of nuance, and context that you can explore within like one social media post, right? And because what happens, like if I'm working with somebody in therapy, and we're looking at an experience maybe that they are in a relationship where gaslighting is happening, I have the opportunity to explore with them the nuance of their experience, the context for both them and the relationship, I can begin to explore if this term even connects to them, because maybe there's so many follow up questions I want to ask before somebody just takes a word and then attaches meaning to it for them for their own life, right? Because words and language are how we connect and communicate. But it's really, they can carry a lot of weight and have a lot of meaning to them. And sometimes we might even put ourselves in a box with a term. So for it, let me just give an example. So postpartum rage is something that a lot of folks are just, have been talking about over the last couple of years finally, because rage within postpartum as a symptom of something, right, is a thing. And naming it has been so incredibly powerful for folks to be like, Oh my gosh, I'm not the only one. See, that's a beautiful bridge to then saying maybe I can get support around this. And I have a word to describe my experience. But if we don't have the follow up support, somebody might hear that and maybe, you know, go to their, might begin to feel even more shame about themselves for being someone who experiences postpartum rage. Or they might go to a medical provider, and say I'm experiencing postpartum rage. And that medical provider, they might experience medical gaslighting, where they just you know, and so, I think that like, we need to hold more space for these terms and this language. There needs to be exploration of context and nuance and all of that. So yeah, I think it's great. I don't think we stop talking about these things. I just think that even when we're sharing information, it's important to begin helping folks build a bridge to learning more about how or if this experience is something that they can, are connected to, are experiencing.
Taylor Morrison
Yeah, there really seems to be a theme today of what we're talking about being an entry point. So like intellectualizing can be an entry point into actual self awareness and vulnerability, and embodiment. Using terms that originate in therapy can be an entry point, to then understanding if and how, like you said, those relate to your life. And really, like the meta theme of the strong friend is, I get something and then I do everything on my own. And what it really sounds like is you're giving us an invitation to explore these things, depending on what it is in the context of relationship. And oftentimes, that can be in a relationship with a professional, with someone who really is well versed in seeing these patterns.
Dr. Cassidy Freitas
And yes, and even that, I would say, I want to be an entry point to then the person individual, being able to come back into their body and tap into the intuition that in the wisdom that they already hold within themselves as the expert of their own bodies and their own lives. Because I think that we so often are looking outside of us, like somebody else must have the answer. And I think that like, even like our school system, right, I think I already mentioned this, but I think that like there's so many systems within our country, in our society, where we are being told to look outside of us for the answer, whether it's an expert or a product or like, right, like capitalism, I think racism, like, you know, sexism, all of the, patriarchy, and all of these systems are trying to convince us that like, we don't know what it is that we need, somebody else does. So I think that good therapy also is about supporting someone in yes, maybe unhooking from their relationship with perfectionism and like doing the deeper work of understanding like why they're triggered in moments with like, their child, for example. But then also, how do we begin to tap into our own intuition and wisdom within our body. So that therapy, the therapy relationship, I think the therapists job is really about working ourselves out of a job, so that the person can begin to look within themselves. And tap into that, and feel that kind of security and confidence that comes with that, that they can then bring into their lives in different, in different ways, in different scenarios and environments and in different seasons.
Taylor Morrison
I'm sitting here smiling, because that is like one of the core things we believe at Inner Workout is that everyone is their own best expert. And sometimes being in relationship with people who have professional experience can deepen our own self expertise. And as you were talking about postpartum rage, I was just thinking about my own experience, I guess, relatively recently, we're coming up on a year of me getting diagnosed with ADHD. And I hadn't been consistently working with a therapist because there, I've had anxiety, I've had all of these things that I have experienced that I was able to handle on my own using the various coping mechanisms. But then when I almost felt like I got blindsided with this ADHD diagnosis, and it was like, wow, I really need someone to help me understand myself in new ways. And there were different, like pieces of terminology or different things that I did that I thought was just my personality that was actually part of my experience with ADHD. And I think that is such a beautiful example of what it can look like to partner with a practitioner in that way, who wasn't like telling me everything about myself, but was giving me information that helped me understand myself in new ways in a season of my life, that was kind of disorienting.
Dr. Cassidy Freitas
Yeah and bridging what you just shared from your personal experience to like this example of postpartum rage is I think, if somebody comes into therapy, and they're like, you know, I saw this, I listened to, I have a pocket episode about postpartum rage right so it's like, I listened to your podcast episode, I really related to postpartum rage and now that they're speaking to me, we get this opportunity to have this like deeper conversation about their experience with it. We can look at rage or any symptom right, like difficulty concentrating or whatever the case might be. So we can listen to that signal ((from our spelling test)) is going on underneath, right. And it might be a symptom of depression or a symptom of anxiety. Or it might be a signal that we're carrying the invisible mental load of caring for our home right. And there's unequal sort of division of labor within the home between ourselves and our partner, we're not getting enough support. Gosh, rage can be I think, a signal of like being a woman living within a society where patriarchy exists, you know, like, so I think that it's really important to yes I think, take the the term that we learned maybe on Instagram in a post or on a podcast episode. And then the deeper work is when we bring that and we begin to tap into what that experience means for us. And then tap into where, how we can almost utilize these signals as a key into tapping into our own intuition. Because let's say, I experience rage towards my children, they trigger me and I get so angry that I yell. When I really do the deeper work, that part of me is a part of me that is protective, and reactive, right? It's also the part of me that sometimes like, I will ignore, and I'll just take care of everyone else around me and ignore that part of myself right? My stress response tends to look like, you know, the fight, flight, freeze, fawn, flock response, like, my tends to look like fawn, which is like putting everyone's needs before your own until I fight. Right. So I'll fawn until I rage. Yeah. And so even just like being able to tap into that, and why do I do that. And the intuition piece is that when I do the deeper work of understanding where that came from, it's actually a much younger version of myself that felt like it had to put everyone's needs before my own and not add to the chaos. And that younger version of myself actually gives me intuitively knowledge about what my children need, when they show up with anger, or big feelings, right? Or, you know, disappointment or rage themselves. Because I now can access what I may have needed in those moments. It's all within us. But it's oftentimes behind a lot of closed doors, a lot of armor. So therapy can be a beautiful place for that work to start.
Taylor Morrison
Yeah, I love that visual of like, it's there, sometimes the doors are closed, sometimes you need someone to help you open those doors. I could sit here and talk with you about this all day. But I'm gonna bring us to our final question, which is, if you could give one piece of advice to strong friends or recovering strong friends, what would that piece of advice be?
Dr. Cassidy Freitas
It would be that you're so not alone. That I think that like that. I think when we when we're feeling alone in something is when it feels impossible to change anything or to learn. And you're not alone. I've been there, I am there. I'm in the process of doing the work of opening up to the people who have earned the right to access my full humanity. And it has been life giving and terrifying, but mostly life giving to feel not alone in this world. Like there's the people out there who know me and all my messiness. And they still love me and to experience that. I can't imagine having gone through this, like, beautiful blip of existence on this earth and like, not having experienced someone seeing all of me and knowing that I'm still loved in that. And that's something I think we all deserve to experience while we're here.
Taylor Morrison
What a beautiful note to end it on. If people listen to this episode, and they were like, I need more Dr. Cassidy in my life, where can they find you?
Dr. Cassidy Freitas
Yeah. So on Instagram at Dr. Cassidy. My podcast is Holding Space, and we have a lot of these conversations. I would love to connect with you there and have you subscribe. And if you're based in California, we can serve folks who reside in the state of California and you can learn more about my practice at dr. cassidymft.com. That's d r c a s s i d y mft.com And I just wanted to thank you, Taylor. I think that being a host of a podcast kind of allows me to stay in my strong friend position. I'm the one asking the questions and intellectualizing right. And so I really and I will say that a big part of my journey in the podcast has been especially over the last year or two is embracing a lot more vulnerability, which has been really powerful for me over there. And I thank you for inviting me to be in this position on your podcast.
Taylor Morrison
Yeah, thank you, you opened up like, in just a way that like there are parts where I got chills. So thank you so much for being willing to share and not just bring, like, there is a version of this episode where you would have come like fully with your therapist hat on. And you really showed up as a person. So thank you for doing that. Not that therapists aren't people but you know what I mean.
Dr. Cassidy Freitas
Well I think my hope with this episode was to walk the walk. Like, of what I'm saying, I think is part of the work. And I thank you for holding that space for me today.
Taylor Morrison
Thank you.
See, what did I tell you? That conversation was amazing and nuanced and had so much depth. I hope you loved it as much as I loved it. Friendly reminder, if you want to get more out of this podcast season, go ahead and grab The Strong Friend's Inner Workbook for $4.99. And start some of your own inner work and reflection. And if you really did love this episode, and you want to see more guests like Dr. Cassidy on the show, make sure that you take a moment to first tell someone about the show. Word of mouth is what grows podcasts. And second, take a moment to review it on Apple podcasts, even if you don't listen on Apple podcast, when I'm trying to get guests, part of what they're doing is looking at the reviews and seeing, do people like this, do people listen to it? And so that's a quick and easy way that you can support the show. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you as always for your expertise and take care.